Federal 2001-130 ANSI testing ???????

[Justin]

The bid was thrown out for a reason not beknown to me, but it was rebid and low and behold the testing requirement was not included in the bids this time.

The bid could quite possibly be thrown out again because of the lack of testing data. I don't suppose Hamilton County, OH provides an online hansard (minutes of each meeting) that discusses the bids? That should have a reason why the bid rejection was enacted.

I honestly cannot see how raising the intake housing for the 2001-130 does anything to increase the volume, and by 2 full decibels from the 2001SRNB's MAX recorded output level.

Hazarding a guess and saying that by increasing the intake housing (and thus the volume of which it can contain air) and by speeding up the rotor (and therefore increasing pitch) could quite possibly squeeze that extra 2dB out of the siren. Having said that, it makes flap all difference at a distance.

Having said that, I don't think Federal are stupid enough to do this modification and not test it. Speaking hypothetically for a minute: say said changes above could actually (theoretically) increase the output to 140dB @ 30m (100ft), you'd think Federal would actually want to test this to make sure? It would make some good bragging material to the competitors.

Personally, I think that they dropped the testing information so that they could quite possibly get into a second round where testing in an outdoor environment would actually occur, rather than get knocked back by figures on a piece of paper. I have no idea of how their tender process is working though.

[SIRENMAN]

Guys this is nothing new with Federal. In 1979 they were brought up and found guilty of fraud and price fixing and sanctioned by the FTC. My favorite is that of Newark Ohio's purchase of the Thunderbeams (forgive me as I do not remember the year) but the story goes like this:

The City of Newark came out with bids for a siren system and the bids were written for a siren that produced 125 or 126 db. This is the time when the T-bolt was very expensive and the P-10 was was superior (cost and db) to the T-bolt. Imagine my suprise when Federal bid the Thunderbeam and won the bid over the objections of Werden Electric and ACA (ASC). Well the system was installed and we were told that if the sirens did not meet the specifications they would not pay until they did or remove them. The day of truth arrived and the big wigs from ACA came down, Werden Electric was there, and so was a rep from Federal. The test was an absolute failure and the Thunderbeam sucked so bad that they were told to fix it. To my knowledge I was told that Federal gave them a break in the cost and all was forgiven. What concerns me is that we are the end user, taxpayer, and rely on our elected officials to protect and serve us and I have not wittnessed any official standing up for the average citizen and it is up to us to set the record straight and inform the uninformrd officials that are the so called experts, but have no clue.

[Jpressman8]

The sad thing is. Some of these elected officials here in Hamilton are not listening either. I don't know what more we can do beyond writing a letter to the commissioners. I'm somewhat disappointed with the elected officials performance in Hamilton county.

[Adam Pollak]

The concept of testing a siren at a dozen feet away and rating it as an interpolated 100 ft measurement is like Pam Cooking Spray's nutrition facts. Aside from volatile aerosols, the ingredient in Pam is oil. Oil = fat. 100 grams oil = 100 grams fat. They knock the serving size down to .28 grams, which would be .28 grams of fat, but they round it down to zero. They then say that you have fat free cooking....by the way, the can has 1,000 servings.

Of course it is not feasible to have 100 foot long testing chambers everywhere, but the current system is meaningless. The measurements so close are meaningless also, because housing and horn lengths have a significant impact on the immediate SPLs.

[Jim_Ferer]

Every state I've worked in (Ohio is not one of them) requires that when a public bid is rejected or rebid then an explanation has to be provided. The explanation might be nonsense, but there has to be one. Ohio probably has this requirement, too.

If ANSI allows anechoic chamber testing then you can't argue. ANSI standards are accepted just about everywhere - that's the point of them - so you're swimming against the tide.

Uniformed guys aren't siren experts. All they've ever done is press the button. Selecting a siren system is actually not supposed to be a big part of their jobs.

[SIRENMAN]

Jim: Please read the original post and read the testing data. ANSI Standards for testing outdoor sirens are S12.14. This was a seperate classification due to the shear size of the equipment and output of the siren (I assume). ANSI must have noticed a need to make this seperate classification and all companies should adhere to the standards. In the report it says "ANSI S1.13-1971 Methods of measuring sound pressure levels for anechoic room measurements" and I also assume this is for small devices.

As I said before this bid was due in August of 2009 and this is the newest testing data available for their siren. Does anyone on this site know what was changed from the 2001SRNB to the 2001-130 to make it competitive with the T-128. Also are you aware that the NRC has reiterated that the T-121 which has the same range as the 2001 can be a direct replacement for the 2001 at nuclear plants. This was also reiterated by Hamilton County EMA in a previous letter.

In summary I am asking if anyone out there has knowledge of any testing data for the 2001-130 and what is the difference between the 2001SRNB and the 2001-130.

[Hacksaw]

There was a Whelen Dealer who questioned the old P-50/T-135 not being a full 135 db @ 100 feet. So, it's not like stereos, where the FTC had to step in on advertised power output in the early 1970's, and forced a testing standard on anyone who advertised stereo power output.

[Jpressman8]

I'd have to agree with JKvernon. To see if acoustic requirements are met , I think that there should be a mobile field test of each siren manufacturer that has a bid in rather than relying on what is written on a piece of paper. That would prevent a situation like Newark,Ohio. As a resident of Hamilton County. I would rather have T-128s in the county rather than 2001s. I would also like to see a local contractor awarded the contract and keep jobs and money in our county. Nothing against Federal or the the Illini. I just think from hearing both sirens operate in Hamilton County that the T-128's sound seems to carry farther than the 2001. I have a 2001 2 miles to the northeast of me and a T-128 2.1 miles to the northwest of me and 2 other T-128s about 4 miles south and southwest of me. When the sirens activate I have never once heard the 2001 here at the house. I can definitely hear all three T-128s. Now i'm no acoustical engineer ,but I can definitely tell with my ears. I think using the db ratings are bogus anyway. Lower pitched sound frequency will carry farther than a higher frequency after the 100'.

[carexpertandy]

Jason, I agree with you. As a Hamilton County resident, I would like getting sirens where the information about it from the manufacturer is more accurate. A T-128 should have an output of 128 decibles at 100', but it doesn't sound the 2001-130 really has an output of 130 decibles. We do have older model 2001s, which I think are better than the 2001-130, because the information Federal had about those was more accurate at the time they were made.

I've seen that bid sheet from Hamilton County, and when I look at all of the qualifications about what the siren should have, it says they must operate on both AC and DC power. I noticed some of the current 2001s and T-128s are DC only, so will the controls have to be upgraded on those units? I also saw that they want 2 voice sirens in the downtown area, but is Hamilton County aware that all electronic sirens are DC only? It makes me wonder if they will still get those sirens, or they will just have whichever mechanical sirens (2001s or T-128s) installed in that area.

[SIRENMAN]

There are several fire chiefs and EMA directors that have told me of their opinions on this subject. A couple of these officials live near 2001's and then they work near T-128 and all tell me the T-128 blows away the 2001. This information may come in handy later on.