County changes Siren Location Policy

[EL1998P71]

I was at a FD over the weekend to take a photo of the station,
and noticed a 2001 in their lot. No big deal.
But it had a spray painted number on one of the boxes.
So I got a Pic of it since it was new to me.( I noticed the more 2001's I drove by the same numbers were on them, 2, 3, 5, 7's)
I only took the pic so when I asked oakland county why that sirens in the same area have the same numbers, they new what I was asking about.
So, The fire Chief saw my website on my truck and contacted me about what I was doing.
He asked why didn't I stop when he tried to flag me down.
With my truck cap, seeing behind me is near impossible.
And When I came into the Driveway, a rescue truck came out with lights on, So I figured, I would turn around an get out of their way if the rest of the trucks came out. So basicly I didn't see him. If I had, I would've stopped.
So I guess after he E-mailed me, he e-mailed Oakland county OEM/HS.
That was on Saturday. And today I got a call from Oakland County Homeland Security today. I was asked what I was doing. and I explained.
I was told that they are/having their location list removed and that I need to remove my Oakland County Siren map on Google. Which I have done. and they said they will be putting a basic coverage map.
They claim that giving the exact locations will help terrorists or theives find the sirens, even though they are on main roads, and are in plain site.

I hope that this is not going to be the new trend.
People should know where they are and what they are for.
So that if they fail, the correct location can be given to get things back in order. giving a "general" location or coverage area will make it harder to find the broken sirens even when the computer tells them it's fine.

[Adam Pollak]

You have every right to have those locations on your web site. They may ask you to remove them, and you may want to stay on good terms with them, but do not let their coercive paranoia terrorize you. Many fans of our country and its great infrastructure have been terrorized by those thinking they are both above the and need to break the laws to protect it. Those siren locations are a matter of public record anyway; they have no right to hide them. They are not military base sirens, they are on open property, in plain site. Information regarding their locations, cost, and functionality all belong to the public. A gas station pump is more of a potential threat than a siren location. Should we sue gasbuddy.com, Google maps, and GPS units to have them remove all the gas station locations? They, like sirens, are also clearly visible on street corners, yet somehow our free speech about them must be censored?

These are the exemptions they have to work with:

In the wake of September 11, 2001, the legislature amended the FOIA to address certain concerns regarding homeland security. A public body may exempt from disclosure "[r]ecords or information of measures designed to protect the security or safety of persons or property, whether public or private, including, but not limited to, building, public works, and public water supply designs to the extent that those designs relate to the ongoing security measures of a public body, capabilities and plans for responding to a violation of the Michigan anti-terrorism act . . . emergency response plans, risk planning documents, threat assessments, and domestic preparedness strategies." MCLA ? 15.243(1)(y).

However, an exception exists that requires an examination of the disclosure's effect. If the disclosure of the information "would not impair a public body's ability to protect the security or safety of persons or property," such information is not exempt from the FOIA's disclosure requirements. Id. Likewise, the information is not exempt from disclosure if "the public interest in disclosure outweighs the public interest in nondisclosure in the particular instance." Id.

With those exemptions, that would mean they do not have to provide you with the information. Any information you have obtained by any means is yours. Again, those laws are only to possibly exempt the government from having to provide you with requested documents. To say you must remove siren locations is directly violating your First Amendment right to free speech. Your posting of those locations is you exercising your rights. They are inflating their EOCegos and terrorizing you. Can they also say you must remove material that speaks offensively about a county official?

Sounds more like the Oakland County OSR than EOC- Office of Sedition Repression. ORE- Office of Rights Elimination. OTP- Office of Terrorism Propagation. Imagine how many innocent people have been terrorized by being threatened and made to think they are bad for exercising their freedoms. I'm sure the Oakland County guys probably think they need to stop people from taking pictures of fire stations, schools, city halls, police stations, fire hydrants, water towers, and everything else. Maybe the Oakland County EOC officials should mute the sirens, because their sounding may help give away where they are located. They also might want to sue Google to have them removed from Street View. At least Google has a stronger legal arm to stand up for freedom and against tyranny. Ok, I'm done

[kswx29]

Sound's like Shawnee County's EM Director to me. Don't get me wrong, he is a pretty good director, but when I asked for the locations he couldn't possibly understand why I would need them and blah, blah. I simply asked when KCMO's sirens were tested and their locations, and she sent me a full list. Johnson County, KS also has a complete list of their sirens. I think it's crazy how some smaller cities (such as Topeka) hide their locations when bigger cities (Like KCMO, OKC) give them to you when you ask. I simply asked when the sirens in Jefferson County, KS was tested a while back, and he sent me a map of their sirens saying "I thought this might be of interest to you." If they are really worried, they need to start locating their sirens in the trees, rather than hideing the locations. All one would have to do is pick a spot, listen to the sirens during a test and drive around in the direction sirens were heard and 80% of the time you will probably find a siren.
Who these days uses the sirens for Attack Alerts anyway? As it is every EM Director is always saying "Don't rely on sirens"...

[md5]

To be honest, the only things that shouldn't be listed is where the sirens are actually set off at. Otherwise, as stated above there should be no issue of where the sirens are posted at.

As for my county, Johnson county, KS - they have multiple locations of where they can set off the outdoor sirens. Where as, (the name escapes me) the county that Topeka, KS resides in only has one location to set off all the sirens. If my memory does not get away fro me on that one.

[coppercarl]

To be honest, the only things that shouldn't be listed is where the sirens are actually set off at. Otherwise, as stated above there should be no issue of where the sirens are posted at.

As for my county, Johnson county, KS - they have multiple locations of where they can set off the outdoor sirens. Where as, (the name escapes me) the county that Topeka, KS resides in only has one location to set off all the sirens. If my memory does not get away fro me on that one.

My mother got me a map of the locations from our EMA director. He does not care at all to give the locations. And the spot from where the sirens are set off from. They are able to be set off from the Ema building and by phoning them.

And by the way, Topeka Ks. in in Shawnee County Ks.

[kswx29]

To be honest, the only things that shouldn't be listed is where the sirens are actually set off at. Otherwise, as stated above there should be no issue of where the sirens are posted at.

As for my county, Johnson county, KS - they have multiple locations of where they can set off the outdoor sirens. Where as, (the name escapes me) the county that Topeka, KS resides in only has one location to set off all the sirens. If my memory does not get away fro me on that one.

Shawnee County actually has two. They can be set off from inside the Emergency Management office, or from the 911 center. Most of the time they are sounded from the 911 center, as it is staffed 24/7.

[bmeiser]

In my emailing of local EMA officials in the Indianapolis metro area, I've gotten everything from complete refusal of information (which I ended up acquiring elsewhere ) to way more information than I asked for. Usually its somewhere in between. Most of the counties in the metro area seem to be fairly willing to share siren related information. I think this might have to do with a local news station that did an investigation on the quality of siren systems in the area a few years back. I guess it really just depends on where you are.

[kswx29]

I think it more or less matters who you're dealing with. Shawnee County outright refuses to give me the locations. Jefferson County gave me the locations when I didn't even ask. Douglas County and Johnson Counties have a map of their sirens on the internet. All of these counties are right next to each other.

[Spotter/Chaser]

In my emailing of local EMA officials in the Indianapolis metro area, I've gotten everything from complete refusal of information (which I ended up acquiring elsewhere ) to way more information than I asked for. Usually its somewhere in between. Most of the counties in the metro area seem to be fairly willing to share siren related information. I think this might have to do with a local news station that did an investigation on the quality of siren systems in the area a few years back. I guess it really just depends on where you are.

I've noticed that the Indianapolis EMA has removed the siren locations from their website during the last couple of years. I, too, have wondered if this is due to some extreme paranoia about supposed "terrorists" running around.

[CDV777-1]

Just curious. How did the county guy get your phone number?
You could change the location map to individual photos with the general locations on the photos.
The whole deal with concern about "terrorists and thieves" is a bit goofy.

The only thing I have ever been asked to remove from my site is an almost complete virtual tour I had of the FEMA underground regional center in Denton Texas. It was one of the coolest things on my site. I visited the center twice and FEMA allowed me to take photos of everything in the center except the communications room. I even had a section on the ventilation system which is equipped with NBC filters and valves which close to prevent entry of blast overpressure. A few months after 9-11 I got an email from the FEMA guy who took me on the tours of the place. He asked me to remove the virtual tour because they were concerned about their "exposure." I called him and he said that they were a bit vulnerable because after all the whole staff is in an underground facility and all it would take it someone to throw some kind of gas bomb onto the air intake and they would be out of luck. The NBC filters aren't in the air system all the time so they wouldn't have time to switch them into the system if something like that happened. Since FEMA allowed me to do the tour in the first place I put up no argument about taking the virtual tour off of my site.