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kx250rider
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Angry; ANOTHER bad crash from electronic PA siren

Sun Jan 24, 2010 6:30 am

I really hate to be writing this, but I just got home from what was supposed to be a quick trip downtown to by a bag of bagels. In stead, I wound up helping to force the door open on a Moorpark, CA sheriffs car after it got broadsided right in front of my nose by an innocent other driver who obviously couldn't hear the siren coming down the cross street :evil: The deputy has what seems to be some broken ribs and burns on his face & arms, and the other driver (16 or 17 years old) is OK besides burns & cuts. Both cars totalled, and the kid's car I couldn't even identify. The deputy was rushed to the hospital, and hopefully will be OK later. I thought the police car was on fire, as the battery had exploded and the car was full of smoke. Turns out it was the air bags. It took a big husky biker dude and me to force the door open on the police car, as the whole body was knocked out of true.

The freaky part of this was that as I watched the police car coming toward me, I thought to myself "some day, I'm going to crash right into one of those silent-siren police cars"... Then BANG! The poor kid coming full speed down Highway 118 did, and both narrowly missed me.

How many times will this have to happen across our great country before they put real, audible mechanical sirens back in emergency vehicles????????????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I wrote a piece for the Los Angeles Daily News several years ago, which was published, when I first noticed these useless police sirens. Time to write another one, I guess.

Anyway, that's my fun Saturday night freezing sitting around, having been told to stay there to make a statement.

Charles
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ginbot86
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Sun Jan 24, 2010 7:00 am

Wow, glad to see you weren't hurt, and good work helping out after the crash.

That said, I think mechanical sirens are definitely a better choice than electronic sirens. Not sure if it's a good example, but wasn't the Federal Q siren banned off fire trucks somewhere?
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Sun Jan 24, 2010 4:08 pm

I decided to write to the Ventura County Board of Supervisors, giving my thoughts on these electronic police sirens... I could do a better job at composing a powerful letter to a politician, but I lay awake from 4:30 this morning thinking about how stupid this problem is, so I got up at 5:30 and wrote it down as it came. At least I spoke my mind, and maybe they'll think about the math, once they get the bills for this crash.

Since I'll probably get hauled into court to testify, I figure writing will help me remember details in case it comes up a year from now.

Charles

Here's a copy & paste:

Dear Supervisor Foy,

It is with great concern for future safety that I herein voice my views as to the cause of the automobile collision between our Moorpark Sheriff's deputy and a civilian driver on Los Angeles Ave/SR 118 at Spring Road, on the night of Saturday, January 23, 2010.

As one of two eyewitnesses to this accident, and as one who helped force the deputy's car open, I can say with little or no doubt that I see clearly what was the cause of this crash. The deputy was operating his car to the letter of the textbook, and the civilian was obeying all traffic laws as well. Clearly, the civilian driver was unable to hear the siren, and was unable to see the lights as they approached from the cross street and were obstructed from view of each other until the last picosecond. The deputy made a proper pause at his red light, and then proceeded cautiously into the intersection with his lights & siren on. However, with the new sound wall along 118 and along Spring Road, and with the civilian car traveling at the 45mph speed limit, it was not possible to have avoided this crash with the split-second perfect timing which prevailed. The only way to have prevented this crash would have been a siren audible and heard in the civilian's car. I have been worried for several years since many police agencies, including ours, have begun to use electronic (PA speaker-based) sirens in their patrol cars. I have medically perfect; perhaps superior to what is considered medically perfect, hearing. I cannot hear these electronic sirens until it's sometimes too late to stop. Many times I have blundered right in front of police cars just as they appear in an intersection, as I did not hear any siren in time to stop. I am also an experienced, safe driver, and I have always been able to evade any crash in those situations. In Saturday's case, the civilian driver was a young, recent licensee. I do not feel it is safe, nor is it the responsibility of a driver, to be forced to "guess" whether or not there could be an emergency vehicle at any intersection at any time. In the past, such vehicles were equipped with mechanical rotary sirens, which carried a much broader spectrum of tone, and would pierce the best-insulated cars to warn all drivers of an oncoming Code III vehicle. I am not alone in my observations, and it has been reported in the news, that other police agencies have begun to add devices to augment the electronic sirens, or in fact have replaced them with old style mechanical ones. The Los Angeles City paramedics have retrograded to the old mechanical sirens, and although I have seen no data, it goes without saying that accidents are surely reduced dramatically. You can hear from blocks away, that there IS a siren someplace nearby, and you are hence on notice not to blast into an intersection despite your green light. Ironically, I was watching the approaching deputy with his lights and siren, and thought to myself just seconds before the crash; "I cannot hear that siren, and some day I'm going to have a wreck with one of those squad cars!" Then BANG!, right in front of me.

I understand that new technology has its merits, but in this case, it is purely a liability and safety hazard; a true menace on the highway. I am sure that the cost to fit every squad car in the County of Ventura would not exceed the cost of one liability lawsuit resulting from not having done so. Please consider my views on this subject, and perhaps draft a recommendation to the Board of Supervisors, and/or whomever may be in the position to decide on a solution. Let's get this handled while all the citizens have to deal with is a wrecked police car, some property damage, and some bills to pay for (God willing),non-life-threatening injuries. Let's not wait until it has cost a human life in our county or elsewhere!

Sincerely, Charles L. Murray


cc: Sheriff Bob Brooks
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Sun Jan 24, 2010 6:54 pm

Wow Charles!!!!!!!!!! Sounds like it was busy night. That reminds me of 2 1/2 years ago when I was caught up in a high speed chase from a kid trying to flee the cops. The kid fled the cops after being pulled over. He drove 120mph on a residential road (35mph zone) almost hitting me then hitting the woman in front of me and crashing into a bar parking lot full of Harleys wiping them out along with the front corner of the bar. He hit the woman in front of me so hard that it knocked the wheels off both vehicles. Luckily we got the woman in front of me out of the car because it was smoking and threatening to catch fire. She was not hurt as bad as we had thought. The kid was running from the police all because he had some weed in his pocket. Luckily I just had to give a statement and not go to court. The kid plead guilty. Back to the matter at hand. I did not hear the sirens of the police car as he was chasing this kid. I too have excellent hearing and did not once hear a siren. So there is something to be said about it. The Fire Engines and EMT vehicles around here are the only vehicles that have mechanical sirens and you can clearly hear them even when you're windows are up.
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Mon Jan 25, 2010 5:14 am

Charles, good letter.

I agree with you 100% on the electronic sirens. They are loud but new vehicles are so well sound deadened that they are hard to hear.
I don't have that problem with the Qs on the fire apparatus fwiw. Those things clear traffic.

The Rumbler/Howler products do help that issue since the low frequencies go through the vehicles much better.

So does preemption on the traffic signals (aka Opticom) where the emergency vehicles all have a special light that trips a sensor on the traffic lights as they approach and the light goes all directions Red other than the one the emergency vehicles are coming from? This does screw the traffic flow but does really help with the issue you're talking about with police/fire vehicles getting T'd by cross traffic.

I've not been to California since I was barely old enough to walk, so is that not common out there?

Its really common here in the D/FW burbs.
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Mon Jan 25, 2010 5:51 am

Reading this made me reminisce a bit, when I used to have my Wrecker in the guard (our maintenece section was removed due to "force restructure") I put an old MP siren on it. the reason was to find the disabled trucks at night, worked good too. I'd be in the vicinity of the breakdown, hit my siren and viola the driver would snap a flashlight or glow stick.

I always got good feedback from the guys on it, one was a sergeant major who felt a bit of comfort knowing that siren meant he would make his mission.

Everyone in my "old" unit loved that siren, need a formation? "hey sarge hit the siren!" ready to move out? "hey sarge hit the siren."

have to admit a mechanical siren does make a difference!
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Mon Jan 25, 2010 11:08 pm

I'm pretty sure cops don't want the electronic sirens either... I was out the other day in my truck (1951 M37) with some form of military Federal siren (I think) on it... Some vets and a cop were around so I let it wind up for a second, and to my surprise instead of being yelled at by the cop he started talking to me about how he sure wished they still had "old school" sirens like that in their cars..
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Tue Jan 26, 2010 12:19 am

Charles, could not agree with you more. I am an old f_art of 63 years and had the privilege of working for a rescue squad back in the late 60's and 70's. We had 6 rescue trucks and all had mechanical sirens, Q's C5's or B&M's. We tried electronics but they would not move traffic like the mechanical's.
This generation of emergency vehicles operators seems to believe a lot of old wives tales about the excess current draw of these types of sirens, like shutting down/resetting computers used in newer cars, lights dimming, etc. If a vehicles electrical system is designed right AND the siren is mounted and wired correctly, this would not be an issue.
I think the biggest reason why you do not see more of course is cost, but where do you draw the line on public safety. I do think that electronics do have a place as a secondary audible warning device along with a mechanical. I have found through testing with my modest collection of vintage mechanical sirens that the decibel level does fall off quite fast after peaking. In a test with my vintage Q, the decibel level fell 10 db in 6 seconds after removing power, most people hear that as a 1/2 of perceived loudness. I have a video of that test on Youtube if anybody is interested, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WZrmmcseJOA

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