New siren prices

[BCHEV1500]

Yes, it is a maintenence hog. BUT you cannot beat the reliability, sound, and durability of a t bolt. With some upgrades, it could be better than the stupid 2001. I do think the 508 is decent but it doesnt beat the thunderbolt. The 2001 is too high pitched. Another siren i think is a better replacement would be a 2t22. There is almost no maintence and it sounds much better than any siren made today.

[uncommonsense]

Yes, it is a maintenence hog. BUT you cannot beat the reliability, sound, and durability of a t bolt. With some upgrades, it could be better than the stupid 2001. I do think the 508 is decent but it doesnt beat the thunderbolt. The 2001 is too high pitched. Another siren i think is a better replacement would be a 2t22. There is almost no maintence and it sounds much better than any siren made today.

You have to remember: enthusiast ≠ community. In the community, when you will have a large system to maintain, anything you do to reduce maintenance cost is long term savings in parts and manpower needed. Remember: the T-Bolt requires the blower and rotator to be oiled, belts to be changed, etc. That requires people, parts, etc. There's no battery back-up, no solar, no nothing. And most newer sirens do come out to be less expensive than a T-Bolt.

I lived in Springfield, MO for 5 years. Springfield had 2001s. I lived in DeKalb, IL for 2 years. They had 2001s. When those suckers went off in attack for a warning, there was no mistaking what they were. They grabbed my attention. It was eerie. I'm sorry you don't like the way they sound, but they did their job and did it with flying colors. In fact, I dare anyone to watch this video of 2001s sounding in downtown Chicago during a warning and tell me 2001s can't grab your attention and raise your skin. Leveling put-downs on the unit by calling them stupid is not going to spark constructive conversation. Just because you don't like it doesn't make it stupid. As I established above, the 2001 is actually quite an intelligent design.

On what grounds can you say the 508 doesn't beat the T-Bolt? And on what metric does it not beat the T-Bolt? I established above that the 508 is a dramatically more efficient and effective design. A specialized horn designed to amplify the tone attached to a unit with veined rotors and stators. A lot of work went into perfecting the 508. And there's no T-Bolt that will ever be as well designed for efficiency as the 508. And have you ever heard of mass 2001 failures? The control systems are highly reliable; the oldest units have been in service for almost 25 years (and some will be facing end of life due to age/desire to upgrade soon, crazy to think). The motors and controls also in the 508. Reliability is not an issue.

Right now I'm in St. Louis again. St. Louis has a system just shy of 200 Whelen 2910s. For the same cost (adjusted for inflation) of a T-Bolt, we have a system of omnidirectional sirens that are battery backed, solid state, solar, and have a tone that carries like nothing I've ever heard (I'll go one record saying the 2910s carry as well if not better than some of the old STL T-Bolts). The T-Bolt was not designed for disaster warning, where redundancy of systems is key (our Whelens operate off the grid and can keep going even if certain components fail). The T-Bolt was designed for civil defense warning: make as much noise in as little time as possible, everything else be damned. Its a different world now. And again, as we live in a frugal world where the low bid is king, try explaining how a T-Bolt with so many components could win bids when there's sirens like the T-128 that can do as well for less with more redundant back-ups.

Finally, the 2T22 will also be an expensive unit to produce. The big difference is 2 rotors to produce vs. 1. Your argument is invalidated by the the fact that an Eclipse-8 will require no more maintenance than a 2T22 for less to manufacture and more redundant back-ups. Go watch this video of Eclipses sounding in downtown Nashville. They work. Well. Dual tone is a product of the civil defense era when it was mandated by government to separate them from general alarm sirens. That's not necessary anymore.

So yes. You might like the way the T-Bolt or 2T22 sounds. That's fine by me. But to insist they be called back to service is simply not feasible. Its 2013 and times have changed.

Anyway, I'm done defending this point. I'm not sure how else to put this.

[TboltTX1]

Yes, it is a maintenence hog. BUT you cannot beat the reliability, sound, and durability of a t bolt.

I believe Whelen has already done that with their 4004/Vortex with the 2020 controller. 1600 watts, maintains the same output during the wail signal, has a tone that carries just as well as the Thunderbolt 1000, and all running off two 12 volt batteries.

The Thunderbolt is still a great siren, but it is just impractical to expect them to sell in this kind of market with all of the new technology available. The Motorola 8900X-2 might not have been a bad phone in its day, but I don't see everyone using one or demanding that Motorola bring it back.

My $0.02

[Bedford_1003]

Does anyone know the prices of the new sirens that are being put up?

ex.
FS ECLIPSE
FS 2001
ASC 128
ASC 121
WHELEN VORTEX
WHELEN WPS
FS MODULATOR
and so on...

What about the origonal cost of some older sirens?

FS T-BOLT
FS STH10
FS STL10
FS 500
ACA P10-15
ACA CYCLONE
ACA ALLERTOR

i am absolutely clueless on what these cost!

HELP!

I know the smallest I-Force costs 12,000.

[BCHEV1500]

Yes, it is a maintenence hog. BUT you cannot beat the reliability, sound, and durability of a t bolt. With some upgrades, it could be better than the stupid 2001. I do think the 508 is decent but it doesnt beat the thunderbolt. The 2001 is too high pitched. Another siren i think is a better replacement would be a 2t22. There is almost no maintence and it sounds much better than any siren made today.

You have to remember: enthusiast ≠ community. In the community, when you will have a large system to maintain, anything you do to reduce maintenance cost is long term savings in parts and manpower needed. Remember: the T-Bolt requires the blower and rotator to be oiled, belts to be changed, etc. That requires people, parts, etc. There's no battery back-up, no solar, no nothing. And most newer sirens do come out to be less expensive than a T-Bolt.

I lived in Springfield, MO for 5 years. Springfield had 2001s. I lived in DeKalb, IL for 2 years. They had 2001s. When those suckers went off in attack for a warning, there was no mistaking what they were. They grabbed my attention. It was eerie. I'm sorry you don't like the way they sound, but they did their job and did it with flying colors. In fact, I dare anyone to watch this video of 2001s sounding in downtown Chicago during a warning and tell me 2001s can't grab your attention and raise your skin. Leveling put-downs on the unit by calling them stupid is not going to spark constructive conversation. Just because you don't like it doesn't make it stupid. As I established above, the 2001 is actually quite an intelligent design.

On what grounds can you say the 508 doesn't beat the T-Bolt? And on what metric does it not beat the T-Bolt? I established above that the 508 is a dramatically more efficient and effective design. A specialized horn designed to amplify the tone attached to a unit with veined rotors and stators. A lot of work went into perfecting the 508. And there's no T-Bolt that will ever be as well designed for efficiency as the 508. And have you ever heard of mass 2001 failures? The control systems are highly reliable; the oldest units have been in service for almost 25 years (and some will be facing end of life due to age/desire to upgrade soon, crazy to think). The motors and controls also in the 508. Reliability is not an issue.

Right now I'm in St. Louis again. St. Louis has a system just shy of 200 Whelen 2910s. For the same cost (adjusted for inflation) of a T-Bolt, we have a system of omnidirectional sirens that are battery backed, solid state, solar, and have a tone that carries like nothing I've ever heard (I'll go one record saying the 2910s carry as well if not better than some of the old STL T-Bolts). The T-Bolt was not designed for disaster warning, where redundancy of systems is key (our Whelens operate off the grid and can keep going even if certain components fail). The T-Bolt was designed for civil defense warning: make as much noise in as little time as possible, everything else be damned. Its a different world now. And again, as we live in a frugal world where the low bid is king, try explaining how a T-Bolt with so many components could win bids when there's sirens like the T-128 that can do as well for less with more redundant back-ups.

Finally, the 2T22 will also be an expensive unit to produce. The big difference is 2 rotors to produce vs. 1. Your argument is invalidated by the the fact that an Eclipse-8 will require no more maintenance than a 2T22 for less to manufacture and more redundant back-ups. Go watch this video of Eclipses sounding in downtown Nashville. They work. Well. Dual tone is a product of the civil defense era when it was mandated by government to separate them from general alarm sirens. That's not necessary anymore.

So yes. You might like the way the T-Bolt or 2T22 sounds. That's fine by me. But to insist they be called back to service is simply not feasible. Its 2013 and times have changed.

Anyway, I'm done defending this point. I'm not sure how else to put this.

Thank you for explaining that, that really put it into perspective for me! I understand it is more practical to have the new, better designed sirens, and they are much safer when it comes to disasters due to the battery backup and designs. I highly dislike the 2001 due to the highest pitch i have ever heard a modern mechanical siren make, but i do have to admit they are very well built and run flawlessly for a long time. The whole design as a whole is great, with a minimal amount of moving parts (thus minimizing maintenance) and the ease of replacing parts. I just think it would be cool if FS will offer a lower tone model of the 2001 (maybe 8 port) for highly populated cities so the sound travels through some walls. (yes i know they are really for outdoor warning purposes only) But i think it is helpful to be able to hear it indoors as well.

Now, the 508 i know just came out within the last few years, and i dont know much about them. I know they are bigger than the 2001 and have a lower tone. I know it is very practical (but it does look like a big spinning flower ) as a preliminary review of the 508, I LIKE IT, and it is much better than the 2001. I understand the whole practical v.s. what some of us want, and that it is better to have the newer, and less "pain in the arse to fix" sirens.

I just think there is a certain feeling you get when you hear the distant sound of a 1000T, or xt22 that sends chills down your back that makes you know "the fits hitting the shan". I just belive it is kind of a nostalgic feeling that i have that there should be a couple older sirens used in current cities just for that effect. For example, I live in loveland ohio, and in downtown loveland it has an older feel to it, its set on the top of a hill but on the side of a small valley. I have always wanted to pay with my own money to restore a 3t22 at the fire department down there because it would scare the living crap out of anyone within a mile, and me being only about 3/4 of a mile from that fire station, i think it would be worth it.

So, to recap, i think it is better that we have the new sirens as a solid, well rounded, and easily maintained warning system. And that it is better to have these because of the backups and better saftey procedures. So i agree with you in that perspecive. BUT i think there should be a few of the older beasts for that Holy shnikeys effect, that errie 3t22, or t bolt ambience that you hear for miles. So i think that a countys system should consist of 99% of newer sirens but that old beauty should still stand of a reminder of what it used to be!

I do think however, that an omni directional siren is all around a better choice because of its lower price point and i the fact that there is only 1 moving part. Either it be a STL10, STH10, 2T22, or an eclipse 8, T121, or sentry.

On another note, i am going to school next year and i am planning on double majoring in electrical and mechainical engineering. I have recently been thinking of using sirens as my main study tool. I also think it would be cool to someday start a company and design my own siren.

[uncommonsense]

Glad I could be of service!

I just think it would be cool if FS will offer a lower tone model of the 2001 (maybe 8 port) for highly populated cities so the sound travels through some walls. (yes i know they are really for outdoor warning purposes only) But i think it is helpful to be able to hear it indoors as well.

Federal already beat you to the punch with that. It was called the Equinox. It had an 8-port rotor fitted to the 2001-130. Given the horn that was affixed to the Equinox was designed for a 12 port siren, it took a serious dB hit (126 db vs. 130), but it served its purpose as a prototype design.

Video:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7LIXvkNbZnA

That being said, there is an 8 port 2001 in production today...one that moved out of prototype. Its called the 508. Remember, the 508 is just an Eclipse attached to a housing, rotator mechanism, and directional horn (note: that horn attaches to the 8 ports and directs the sound out of them. The 2001's horn does the exact same thing, except attaches to 12 ports). That makes the 508 an 8 port evolution of the 2001 and an efficient siren to manufacture since its a specialized Eclipse on a 2001's rotator.

Here's some visual assistance on what I mean when I talk about how the horns connect to the ports. Note the ridges on the back of the 2001 horn. Those ridges are the beginnings of 12 individual horns that connect to the 12 ports on the stator. This allows the output from each port to be amplified. Photo credit- Brett Wilcox:

You'll note the exact same thing on the 508, just configured differently to account for the acoustics of the 8 ports. The horn structure is REALLY obvious here. Photo credit - kdksiren.

I just think there is a certain feeling you get when you hear the distant sound of a 1000T, or xt22 that sends chills down your back that makes you know "the fits hitting the shan". I just belive it is kind of a nostalgic feeling that i have that there should be a couple older sirens used in current cities just for that effect.

Now this point I sure can relate to. Nostalgia bites me in the caboose sometimes. So many times there are things I wish I could do/hear/experience one more time. Amen!

This is how I still feel about St. Louis's old Whelens on the early generation controllers. Nothing said the world was about to end than hearing them go off in the middle of the night. Alas...its all but a memory! I think some of these new sirens can scare you pretty good, too. It'll be interesting to read this board in 25 years and see what our kids say about the sirens they grew up with. Will people be missing 2001s and trying to save them from the scrap heap because its what they grew up with and were terrified by? I'd say there's a pretty good shot

I do think however, that an omni directional siren is all around a better choice because of its lower price point and i the fact that there is only 1 moving part. Either it be a STL10, STH10, 2T22, or an eclipse 8, T121, or sentry.

Sadly, not true. Omnis are by nature going to put out lower dB for the same HP/watt rating because they're covering 360º simultaneously instead of focusing a beam of sound (ex. a Whelen 4004, 1600 watts, is rated the same as a Whelen 2910, 4000 watts; a Sentry 40V2T, using a 40 hp motor or 2-20 hp motors in the -B model puts out the same as a T-128, which are both now rated for 130 db in the literature...I do realize that's a fallible measure** and I'm comparing apples and oranges). You either need more smaller omnis or fewer, significantly beefier (thus expensive) omnis. That being said, I still agree an omni >>> directional. There's no rotators to fail and get a horn stuck in one direction. The output is 360º constant. And they certainly hit you with sound for a longer duration. Like I keep saying, I've been gobsmacked with how impressive St. Louis's 2910s are.

On another note, i am going to school next year and i am planning on double majoring in electrical and mechainical engineering. I have recently been thinking of using sirens as my main study tool. I also think it would be cool to someday start a company and design my own siren.

Just remember something important: innovation stops only when someone is brazen enough to say there's no more room to innovate. Go for it!

===
** This is quite the aside, so I decided to leave it for a footnote. The fallibility of the dB rating is actually coming to light amongst the manufacturers as well. The dB wars actually might be coming to a close. I've noticed manufacturers focusing on coverage and frequency more than just rote output. Frequency affects attenuation and penetration, and the design of the siren can affect coverage. You'll note Whelen does not offer dB ratings in its literature anymore; just estimated coverage. ATI does much the same. The existence of the Eclipse and 508 is no accident. Sentry talks about its port ratios in its literature. The new T-135 AC/DC gets better performance than its 50 hp predecessor because of its frequency. Etc. etc. etc.

[BCHEV1500]

Federal already beat you to the punch with that. It was called the Equinox. It had an 8-port rotor fitted to the 2001-130. Given the horn that was affixed to the Equinox was designed for a 12 port siren, it took a serious dB hit (126 db vs. 130), but it served its purpose as a prototype design.

I did not know about this at all! Apparently they decided that the 508 was a much better design, but that 2001 is pretty cool! i have seen that video before, but i thought it was videoshopped ( or whatever they call it)...

[uncommonsense]

BTW, BCHEV, I just want to say publicly I wish I could clone you. Your eagerness to learn and build on what you're learning is something that used to be so prevalent around here and I've come to miss it greatly (though I see it slowly returning). If I could reach through my screen and high five you, I would.

[BCHEV1500]

here you go! and Thanks!

[TboltTX1]

I never did understand the concept of the Equinox. Are the 12 port and 8 port rotors the same diameter? If so did they just put the 8 port rotor on the 12 port stator, or did they swap out the entire rotor/stator assembly? But if they did swap the entire chopper assembly, how would they mount that 12 port horn on it?

I thought I remembered hearing something about the enclosure around the chopper being taller on the Equinox, but now I'm not sure...